Does that mean that all CV parents who left Cabo verde and had children in a different country are no loger CV's..

Again I ask you where did Caboverdeans come from? The Portuguese historian say that there was no one on those Islands when they found it.

Let me ask another question from all who read this. There is a place in Senegal called Cap Vert from which I understand is how the Portuguese mariners used that as a reference point and when they got to the archipelago they called it Cabo Verde. Does any one else have anything to say on the subject beside this man who calls himself San-Antao.

Well I see you are still saying that Brown people are Europeans. I am sure that Hannibal was a person of African decent. This point of calling people black as a nationality is not correct. While some people want to use African interchangeble with black I don't buy into that concept.
The truth of it all if you want to know that the greater majority of people are brown or very dark brown. I really don't get involved in that game of color. So you have your opinion on the subject and I have mine.

Africans are Africans from the continent there hue is not important. but if it makes you feel better to deal with it, thats ok.I am not color struck.

The other point that I will make is that you only accept history from European concept of the knowledge from Europe. I think you will also say that Egyptians are also Europeans in North Africa or that Moroccans are also Europeans. I also find it very repugnant and insulting your attitude towards African Americans. I find it very repulsive.
Do you know any African American? Why is it I get the feeling you don't like them,maybe I am wrong but you come off that way. Help me to understand your intense hostility and aversion towards African Americans?

I do know that some Caboverdianos have this superior complex against the Negro(African American) Primarily because this is what the European
taught both in the church and it was there psychic hate as an excuse to enslave them and to treat them less then human is that your thinking on this question? It was why they created a white, blue eye blond God. Truth be told and this is very interesting if you were dark(Black) in Cabo verde and was rich they would say you were white how about that.

Well my man the best of luck to you and good health.

No I am not taken your words out of context. What it is. Is what it is.

salah,

I lived all my life soyrounded by algerians, marrocans, tunisians, which describe themselves as whites. the north-africans are not europeans, they are white mediteraneans, no matter their color of skin. I never told that they were europeans, you are the one you wants to make people that white=european. The north africans are "maghrebins" and on this rap

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, the rapper who is from algerian origins tells "noirs et maghrebins" which means "blacks and magrebins", this means that people from north-africa perceive themselves as different from the sub-saharians, and so do I...

Concerning your capeverdeaness, you are confused between ethnicity and identity. For me salah, your identity is american, and your ethnicity is capeverdean. The real capeverdean the ones who are born in capeverde, have a capeverdean identity...this might be too complex for you to understand it...

St_ANTAO, you either STOP insulting people or you'll be BANNED from this forum. If you don't know how to talk to others or exchange ideas without insulting them, PLEASE LEAVE. We are fed up of your rudeness and lack of manners.

One more time you violate the code of conduct of this forum, YOU ARE GONE!

Vulkon di Fogo (forum Moderator)

untill you can prove opposite, I didn't insult anyone in this site...

salah,

for me you are an american (identity), your ethnic origin is capeverdean. Most important, is how can you be a capeverdean (identity) if you don't speak portuguese or criolo, you see for me language is also very important in identity. Why? because each language has its codes and its barriers and if you don't speak portuguese then there is a lot of genuine capeverdean things that you can't understand because of this language barrier.

salah,

you wrote "Again I ask what is America? I was born in the United States." If you are born in the usa, then you are an american(=usa citizen). This is your identity. In the other side your ethnic background is capeverdean.

you are not very honest when you write your messages why? because you wrote, "Again I ask what is America? " know I ask to you. what is africa? what is europe? Can you give me the same kind of answer by describing the diverse people living in those two continents?

Please, everybody Boycott St_Antao!

From reading and analyzing St_Antao's posts I've noticed that he has a clear agenda on this forum:

- Promote the European superiority propaganda based on the color coded system

- Mock and ridicule the Cape Verdean independence from Portugal and at the same time promote the false notion that Cape Verdeans are Portuguese and so should become a dependent territory of Portugal

- Promote the propaganda that Africans are inferior and Cape Verde is not part of Africa

- Interrupt any conversations or discussions about the progress and development of Cape Verde as an independent country

- Insult people, and disturb any progressive debates

- Suffocate the positive things from Cape Verde while gearing everybody's focus on negative and worthless debates

So, since he's against the goals of this forum I suggest everybody here boycott him by ignoring his comments while keeping the positive discussions with other members here.

At some point he's going to get desperate and start to insult other people since no one is paying attention to him. Consequently he’s going to be banned from this great forum and the visitors and members of this site will enjoy exchanging constructive and positive discussions without he’s annoyance and negativity.

Please, let me know if you agree with this approach.

I myself can only take so much ignorance and stupidity, especially when they are premeditated and planned. When it gets to much it triggers my allergy to ignorance and BSing. In fact, my doctor said I cannot hang around ignorance much because it can suck you in like a black hole and make you worse than its source. So, on my department, I'm starting the boycott right as I finish these typing these words.

it is the first time that you face someone who doesn't share the same ideas than you, you feel uncomfortable to have a different point of view of yours (or amilcar cabrals), this is the proof of the censorship, propaganda and lack of democracy. Why is it only the ideas of amilcar cabral which are represented on the cv media? when did it went so wrong?

I know maica that you are a memeber of staff of the forcv.com, then you can control the information in this website as it suits you. Very fortunatly, I am here and I will send message that are not the same than your propaganda.

Back to the identity issue.

Maica/Kakau, you claimed in another website that you were more a guinean than a capeverdean, and you also told last week that your professor at university told you that you are a portuguese. You see where is your real identity?...--->portuguese from cape-verde

What I said in the other site is that once when I met with an African American Dean, not a professor, from a prestigious New England University, he pointed to his very dark skin with his index finger and in a mocking tone said that, he, not me, wasn't black, but portuguese. He then laughed out loud in a histerical mocking manner. Now since your very poor english comprehension impeded you to grasp the meaning of what I had said in the first place, I will simplify it for you: Basically, the fact that he was very dark and would tell me such a thing, that he wasn't black, but portuguese, in a mocking tone, was meant to ridicule Cape Verdeans because in his mind all Cape Verdeans think like you. I went out of my way to prove to him and countless others that I'm "not like those Cape Verdeans", i.e., the sterotypical ones, who by the way, you symbolize, but it seemed to have been to no avail because they still to this day ridicule and mock Cape Verdeans

ok, so this dean was somehow frustrated...can you give us more detail on what happened what did you tell him to spark this frustrated reaction?

I was considering going to Brown University Graduate School so I went to see this particular dean, a Black Dean, for admission advice. This was the only African American Dean at Brown University so I assumed he'd give me good advice on account of our being both black. But it didn't turn out like that. Read on!

As I entered his office and introduced myself, the second he heard my accent, he asked me where I was from. I told him I was from Rhode Island. That answer apparently wasn't enough for him. So he proceded by saying that he "detected an accent in my voice" and that my accent is "definetely not a native new england accent". I didn't press the issue. So he pressed on by asking "where are you really from". I replied by telling him that I'm originally from Cape Verde but that I had been living in Rhode Island for several years. Upon hearing this he chuckled and exclaimed "oh, is that right!". "That's right!, I said. That's when he chuckled again and pointed his index finger to his dark skin and said in a mocking tone, "I'm not black, I'm portuguese" followed by a hysterical laughter.

I had no doubt whatsoever that he meant to ridicule me solely on account of my being Cape Verdean, because the second he heard the word "cape verdean" all he could picture in his mind is the old time illiterate CV who though of obvious African origin, swore that he was not black; he was portuguese, the old time illeterate CV pathetically insisted. This image of CVs seems to be planted in the brains of just about all New England African Americans, including the educated ones.

I say this based on ad infinitum similar experiences I had had with African Americans in New England when I lived there for more than ten years. So this particular experience I had with the Dean didn't really surprise me that much. But it's lasted this long in my memory because as a Dean of a prestigious university, I'd expected him to be less subjected to ethnic cliches.

The more "common" people are the ones I expected to have such mindsets. In fact, whenever I talk with New England African Americans, I almost always expect them to assume that I think in a particular manner because I'm a Cape Verdean. The fact that I have a strong Black identity and furthermore the fact that I'm intimately acquainted with black history and culture doesn't seem to matter. Why? Because of Cape Verdeans like you, st_antao. You are the source of my having to constantly prove myself to others. For that, I will confess to you that many times I have wished I could morph into my computer and physically enlighten you.

Anyway, all things considered, as that particular Brown University official was the Dean, and I was a mere prospective student, I didn't have the courage to demand that he not mock me on account of what I knew was his cliched perception of Cape Verdeans, i.e., cape verdeans are this, capeverdean are that, bla, bla, bla. In retrospect, I wish I had the courage to inform him that Cape Verdeans are not a monolith and that we have a keleidoscopic range of perceptions and opinions. But I didn't tell him that.

So, in short, needless to say, that meeting didn't go in the direction that I'd prefered it to have gone, all because of the images of the old time CV being unjustly taxed onto me.

Kakau don't let that get you down. This is just one person with a bad taste in his mouth. Here is what I would suggest. Go and see the new CV Mayor
from East Providence, Dr. Isadore Ramos, my very dear friend. He can certainly help you.

The time will come when you will have the chance to inform and educate this Dean. You want to know something that is a paradox, they may have a problem with CV men with an accent but they love CV women with or without accent.

You don't have to explain to any one who just wants to dig, to make you uncomfortable about who you are because of their ignorance or sarcasm. May I add don't be drawn into the pull of those who are negative. I encourage you to go to Brown University. It is a great Ivy league school. Make your mark my Brother. When you get your Ph. D. and give your mag-na cum-laude or summa cum laude address you can say something like this, "is this black enough from a Caboverdiano with an accent." Ha Ha Ha.

No Pintcha my Brother.
That is your challenge.
Manu Salah

Thanks for your words of support and encouragement, Mr Manu Salah.

maica/kakau,

do you have a PhD? did you manage to go to this brown university?

To consider or considering refers to a planed action in the future. That is, I am planing to go to Brown University in the future. In other words, my plan hasn't materialized yet. I'll let you know when it does materialize. By then, I hope your english comprehension will have improved because right now it's really poor.

maica,

when you wrote that you were considering to go to brown university, you didn't mention when. So it could have been 7 years ago, and since then you could have had two PhDs in social science...

So what is you position/situation to date apart from being an active staff member of forcv.com?

Santo antao,

The topic of the debate is:

"The issue of capeverdean identity is still ataboo"

If you need some personal information of anybody along the debates other than what was given on the Forum, which is not relevant to the discussion in point, I advise you should ask them to get you a link for personal exchange of info - (e-mail address, phone # for example) .

It is so distracting!!!!!

Thanks

Cabrala

ok,

concerning this topic, salah matheus asked why the word "taboo" is used? This is my answer

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I guess you are reacting to the thread about the capeverdean identity?

the word taboo was used because it is a taboo, to claim that capeverdeans are portuguese. Why because the ones who do so, are accused of trying to better themselves to compare themselves with the "great" whites (ironical). when they are just trying to claim their real identity.

But it is still a taboo in the capeverdean identity to claim that you are portuguese because it is mis-ineterpreted. read again the original article


Here is what they wrote
"Do you believe that, thirty years after independence, Cape Verdeans have reached a conclusion regarding their identity?

It continues to be a process. Immediately after independence came the phase of the re-Africanization of spirits, with the PAIGC/PAICV, although this was never something pacific, for the oldest areas of settlement, beginning in 1462, are more closely linked to Africa, while beginning in 1991 we saw an erasure of the symbols and signs representing this. All you have to do is take a look at the Constitution or the national symbols: we no longer have the colors of Africa or the black star on our flag, which is now blue and white with stars, something closer to Europe. These are two different visions, two different perspectives. From time to time, when there are problems and regionalist issues arise, this comes to the surface. I think it’s a process that continues and should be discussed. It’s still somewhat taboo, but it has to be discussed on scientific foundations and without complexes and not in political terms, with positions being defended depending on whether one is a supporter of the MpD or the PAICV.

So are Cape Verdeans more African or European?

We are what we are because we have both components, without denying the African component or overvaluing the European component.
"

and I think, that I am the only one here trying to break this taboo, by facing this difficult issue.

Every one has a right to their own opinion;that is to say an appraisal formed in the mind about a particular subject matter. A POINT OF VIEW OR JUDGEMENT. Depending upon the conviction on how we view history.
Evidence of its truth and also reflective of ones feelings and there are also preconceived notions.

This topic about identity could go on forever,it reminds me of what came first the chicken or the egg. Question has been asked are we more of this or are we more of that? I want to bring another idea of to the forefront which while it may not be the same it has some similarity.

The Africans that were forced into slavery by the dominating influence of the English speaking people; who are in the United States for the last 400 years,now that they only speak english does that make them english or are they still Africans? (African Americans)

The same question could be ask about the people of Haiti who speak French and also have a particular brand of their own creolu called(Patwa).

I want to thank Dr.Brito-Semedo for his analysis in his interview on
A Semana Online.

Some questions.
I wonder if the diffusion might also have some confusion interms of who's historical perception and analysis we accept as valid science on culture and history from an Occidental or perhaps Africanna Oriental origin?

Dr.Leaky and Dr.Basil Davidson and Dr. Chiek Anta Diop have a different opinion about African History as opposed to some of other occidental historians.

We also have what is called Afro-Asiatic history relating to,or being a family of languages widley distributed over southwestern Asia and Africa including the Semetic,Egyptian,Berber,Cushite,and Chadic subfamilies.
Purely academics.

Dr.Brito-Semedo the question that A Semana asked was what role did the elites play in the process of the formation of Cape Verdean identity?

The word amorphous meaning without definite form(unclassifable).
along with historical.social and political context.

there is also a sentence -- "there is a demand,which is not yet very conscious,for native-born Cape Verdeans to be considered equal to those
born in the metropolis in view of the law.They were Cape Verdeans,to be sure,but they were Portuguese! Except that they weren't treated with all the rights of those born in the metropolis."
I was born in the United States and I am sure that you can help me to have a better understanding.

Dr.Semedo as a student would you be kind enough to make this more clear. I do appreciate very much what you have to say.
This as you know is very important subject in the Caboverdiano community.

In my next topic I will raise another question that I think will supersede Identity.

Thank you again for your kindness.
Manu Salah Omowali Mateus

salah,

I got the feeling that you are doing exactly what doctor semedo is talking about in this article, you are opposing the two components of the capeverdean origins.

My personal opinion, is that you are extrapolating, african-history and afro-american history to explain the capeverdean history. While the portuguese context his more accurate to understand capeverdean identity. In my opinion your are taking the wrong direction, and you are probably leading other in the wrong direction with you...

I see a paradox, of assimilating race and color. For me the race of the people who come from marroco, is arab and this regardless of their color of skin, which is an irrelevant criteria in regard to their arabic-racial background.

Concerning my self, depending on what I tell, the people see me as a black or an arab or a portuguese(white). Although my skin is very brown I pass for a portuguese somehow...For me no doubt I am a mixed race and I think I am exactly in the middle of portugal and africa (50%-50%).

You know salah, I didn't work with a maroccan I grew up with them and not only them, algerians, tunisians, turks and also blacks camerounese, congolese, ivorians, senegalese, guineans, malians, mauritanians. I don't talk about my experience with one of them I am talking about the 20 years a grew up with people from these background in the french melting pot, and what I am sure is that black africans and arab/north africans are not the same race...although some of them have the same color, color is irrelevant to describe races...

st_antao, use your head, man. You say that people can describe you as either a black, an arab or a portuguese, depending on what you tell them. Well that settles the debate as far as I'm concerned, because if you really weren't black, as you so desperately want us to believe, you wouldn't have been mistaken for or considered to be one, no matter what you say to people. But yet people do consider you to be a black, a noir. Why? Because you are one. In short, to make my case, consider this analogy: you share a culture and geographical origin with the late Eugenio Tavares, but he, unlike you, I would bet dollars to donuts, wouldn't have been taken for being black, regardless of whatever he had told people. Why? Because he wasn't phenotypically black. You are, thus you are considered one. End of debate.

"...and never the twain shall meet." Ever think about just agreeing to disagree? No matter who we are, think we are or want to be...we're all God's children when all is said and done.