cabrala,

you talk about revolts, there was revolts against the portuguese governement in santo-antao in the 19th century. The thing you have to keep in mind is that there is revolts against the governements in all the countries. Furthermore all the revolts in cape-verde were isolated and reduced in the number of people who took part on it.
In february 1820 there was a revolt in brava against the will of the portuguese governement to install a portuguese born captain (capitao-principal).
In march 1820 in boavista, the captain of boavista Cabral Goodolphim, proclames the new-constitution
In 1822, in santiago, the captain-principal of Santiago, João Pereira de Carvalho, tried to declare the independancy of cape-verde to try to join cape-verde to brazzil (freshly independent), there was a revolt of the peasant of the valey of engenhos.
In march 1834, in santiago, during the portuguese civil war, there was a revolt of the "absolutist" against the "republicans".
In april 1891, in mindelo there is a revolt of the labour of mindelo when the coal company decided to drop(fire) 2000 workers.
In april 1886, the republican revolt in santo-anto was lead by the lawyer Gonzaga dos Santos.
The summum of the cv revolts was in 1893 in santo-antao opposing paul to ribeira grande. The poet Januário Leite was one of the main activists in this revolt.
In 1910, in santiago, the priest Duarte da Gracas in send in prison after a revolt of peasants. They were against the new-portuguese republic which was trying to make portugal a "laic"(separation of state and church) country.

Here comes the principal point of my post. These cape-verdeans were doing revolutions against the portuguese governement and not against portugal. The people of mainland portugal themselves were doing revolts and especially in 1830 when there was the portuguese civil war between royalists and republicans. Again, when salazar took the power in portugal he was oppressing the cape-verdians with the PIDE. The PIDE was also oppressing the portuguese in mainland portugal. The fascism in portugal was against the portuguese people, salazar was a dictator. The portuguese did a revolution in 1974 at the same time than the colonies because they were also fed up with the fascists.

This is the first part of my answer to your previous post. I will devlop my answer on the other points in my next message.

Even if you bring your second part of your answer, you still seem confused on so many things and apparently obssessed.

One misleading factor on your argument is that some of your data are wrong. The revolt in 1910 was not because of division between church and the government that reflected in cabo verde, which seems to the central excuse on your arguments. They had to do with "taxation" codje Purga" on the colonies, exactly the same excuse for the Independence of US from British government. My friend, it's alwasy against the government, not the people. Americans had relatives in Britain too at that time.

You are trying to dissociate Portuguese government and Portuguese colonial Power against the African countries. Of course capeverdeans were against the the Portuguese government. Who else do you expect them to against? It does not matter what the portuguese people felt at the moment about their government. Our problem had nothing to do with their government.
Our problem had to do with COLONIALISM = SOVEREINGTY = SELF-DETERMINATION on a country separated from Portugal. You call the fascist regime of Salazar as if Salazar started colonialism in Africa.

Don't worry about the people that take sides in situations like this. In America at separation from Britain, there were a bunch of people that didn't want the Independence. It is always like this.

Colonialism already existed and it was alredy bad enough. Salazar regime only made it worse.

By the way, I don't know where you place colonialismin in your falacious arguments. You probably say they were false accusations by Amilcar Cabral, his folowers and "rabelados" because of misunderstandings.

If the revolts were not revolts against the PORTUGUESE COLONIAL POWER (EMPIRE), I am done with this futile debate. You seem to list the revolts to make sure you didn't leave any one out, I will help you with one more for your list. "Massacre de Pidgiguiti".


Cabrala

Cabrala,

are you sure that the people living in portugal were not oppressed by salazar and the PIDE? Do you think that Salazar was deporting only people from the colonies, and no continental portuguese?

I have to recognise that I went to quickly in the description of the revolt of 1910, the revolt was because the peasants of santiago wanted to be the owners of the lands they where working. The priest Duarte da Graca was emprisoned because the captain of santiago was convinced that he was the leader of the revolt...

Our debate is entering its more interesting phase, as we are reaching the interesting point. Was cape-verde a colonie, like the guinea-bissau, angola or mazambique. Well, no. Portugal allways declared that cape-verde was not negociable as a colonie and that cape-verde was part of portugal. The cape-verdeans were mixed-race portuguese. If you are a little bit curious, you will find that portugal didn't want to recognise cape-verde as a colonie at the UN assembly and the UN had to force portugal to accept to sign a UN-resolution stating that cv was a colonie and had the rigth to purchase independancy. The UN even thougth that cape-verdeans were forced by portugal to live in the archipelago and in 1975 proposed to bring back all cape-verdeans to guinea-bissau. So you see that probably someone lied to the UN about our history and our identity

A great page about the history of the African people:

THE GLOBAL AFRICAN PRESENCE-http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html

PINA,

I don't feel, like it is worth talking with you because you are not fair. You see I can recognise that the whites, especially the british and the germans are the worst criminals that the earth has ever seen. I am also lucide enough to recognise that the african civilisation never went trough the level of a tribal civilisation...for me this tribal-thing is typical of africa because the indians, chinese, europeans, south-american civilisations stoped to be tribal-civilisation 2, 000 years ago. sub-saharan Africa is still in the transition from a tribal to a civilian civilisation, and sorry for telling it but this is backward and also the reason for the problems we are seeing in africa. From this, people can write books about seudo-great civilisations, it changes nothing to the real situation, that we can all see.

Na paz di Dios, nha irmun.

CV2K,

Believe me, I spent more than 1 week, or 1 month thinking and studying this question.

At the first superficial look, you can tell that if africa has problems, it is the fault of the european colonialisme.But, when you put this question on the global level, you realise several things. Europeans tried to colonise and enslave several civilisations on the world.
They tried to enslave the north-africa arabs but they had to give up because even on that time the arabs would make whites payback very harshly. They tried to enslave south american natives but they were to week for that.They tried to colonise china, japan, saudi arabia but never manage to do it, because these three country have the skills for strategical thinking.

My question, is why everything that the europeans tried to control africa was successfull. For me the reason is due to africa weaknesses. It is africa that can't manage to stop european-west trickery to take control of this continent, even today when the west is struggling against china and india, india and china are smart enough to block european-west trickery to control them.

From Creolinha...."Now, I understand why cvmusicworld.com and Sodade I mean Sodadi magazine doesn't publish much articles about Cape Verdeans artists from the island of Santiago. You go there, it's mostly about artists from Barlavento or those from S. Vicente and Santo Antao that lives in Portugal. Badius come out on it once a month if they're lucky. With racist editors like St_Antao that can't stand badius, Santiago artists will never get the attention and coverage they deserve on those publications."

creolinha...don't believe the lies. St Antao is not related to Sodade or CVmusicworld in any way. I have dealt with them and St Antao isn't there. Another point...last issue of Sodade, would you know who is on the cover? Ferro Gaita. Are they barlavento. There's also an article in the issue about Norberto Tavares. Where is he from? Just curious. Painting in the centerfold of Anu Nobu. Where is he from? From what I've read in their issues, all the islands and diaspora are represented.

It's bad enough when a debate grows contentious...but spreading non-truths is only adding fuel to the fire and muddying up the debate. Be above it creolinha and "guest". For a nation that strives for unity, you sure like to drive wedges inbetween the islands.

I confirm, I am not related to cvmusicworld.com. I just go to their chat to be a couterweigth to maica's pro-africanist point of views, with my pro-portuguese point of views. Furthermore I am not american and I will probably never go to america.

Again, Sto Antao you continue to misunderstand the truth. Of course I never said anything that is white culture is bad or everything that is black is good. How could I? Thank you CV2K for the support.

Sto Antao, you need to open your mind and let things in = Education. Your debate is black versus white but you call it Europe vs Africa, Asia, America. Africa is a mixed continent and both the humanity and civilization started in Africa. You are being brainwashed.

Trying to divide Africa between white Africa and Black Africa is a White people's srtategy to emphasize white people's superiority. People who were the most brutal have been European people. Slavery existed for a long time in Europe. There is still tribes in Europe. That is not African people prerogatives. There are several tribes in America, the most evident are Indian tribes because they tend to refuse to integrate. Tribes mean families, relatives, sameness, nothing more. What you are defending in your argument is tribalism. We need to be more Universal.

There is nothing scientific that proves White people superiority to Black people or other races (if there are races).

The only difference is culture, tradition, mental disposition, educational oportunities. Yes, there is some coincidences between cultures and races or ethnicity, but ethnicity is more about culture than it is about phenotype(skin color), or genotype (genes). People group themselves by ethnicity (culture) not skin color.

Skin-color type of disvision is a disonest disvision by dominators.

With that in mind, you are only left with how people behave in general and what are the circumstances that sorround them.

Civilization started way before Europe enlightenment, either in India, China, Africa or Middle East. Science, mathematics, art, architecture, literature etc. in all dimension. The truth is that European tribes have more prediposition for destruction, possession, and domination. I didn't say that, check the history.

To me European tribes were among the few tribes that take pride in being violent (war) by measuring their strength against other people. You have more statue of (warriors) and famous people being worshiped than you have of Philosophers, scientists, religious, or artists all together. Tribes in Europe always attacked other tribes for possession and slavery. That need to always possess more lead Europeans to control more as well as distroy and distort the truth about other civilizations.

Cabrala

well, thanks, your previous message is the proof that cape-verdeans are portuguese

Here is another article from Today's Standard-Times Editorial page:

YOUR VIEW: Cape Verdean identity is no simple matter of African or Portuguese

By Dawn Blake Souza, wife of Zack Souza


Dawn Blake Souza Ms. Souza of Dartmouth is a retired principal of Campbell Elementary School in New Bedford. She works part-time at the New Bedford Adult Learning Center and is a descendent of a Cape Verdean whaling family.

My response to Alberto Pina's Oct. 3 letter to the editor can only be described as outraged. How dare he characterize your published documentary, "A Nossa Vida" as "offensive" to the Cape Verdean community? How audacious of him to speak for an entire community as diverse in its perspectives as the Cape Verdean community!
No doubt there are many in our community who would support Mr. Pina's views; but make no mistake, there are as many who would disagree with his basic arguments.

For example, Mr. Pina contends that one of the documentary's authors, Joao Ferreira, erred when he included the arrival of Cape Verdean immigrants in the section titled, "Making the Perilous Journey to America." I would remind Mr. Pina that the photo and the accompanying text displayed in that piece correctly identified them as Portuguese immigrants, as Cape Verde at that time was part of Portugal; and they were, indeed, citizens of Portugal. And we certainly know how perilous their journeys were.

Mr. Pina does acknowledge that the ties between Cape Verdeans and the Portuguese through culture and language but attributes them simply to "the fact that the Portuguese Empire enslaved and dominated the people of those 10 African islands for 500 years." Although it may be true that Cape Verde was a neglected colony of Portugal for more than 500 years before becoming independent and aligning itself with Guinea-Bissau in West Africa, characterizing our beautiful and fiercely independent people as "enslaved" is simply inaccurate. The Cape Verdean immigrants who settled in this area in large numbers during and immediately following the whaling era were not fleeing slavery, but like many other immigrants were leaving behind drought, famine and lack of opportunity for their families to flourish.

The irony of this is what all Cape Verdeans, whether immigrant or American born, can identify with: the "saudade," or longing to return to Nha Terra, the homeland, not to some undesirable land where they felt enslaved and oppressed.

The rich literature and music of Cape Verde is full of reference to the paradox of wanting to remain in the homeland but needing to leave.
Finally, the debate on Cape Verdean identity: African versus Portuguese is one that cannot be resolved. Ask 100 Cape Verdeans this question and you will get 100 different responses. We are, after all, a blended people. Our history, culture, tradition, values, music, language, etc. have roots in Africa, Europe and Asia. Due to the strategic location of the islands, many Cape Verdeans carry in their veins the blood of French, English, Moroccan, Italian, Sephardic Jews, East Indians and many, many others who journeyed to our homeland. Some Cape Verdeans are simply of Portuguese ancestry; others are simply of African ancestry; but statistically, the majority are a racial and ethnic blend.

I do concede one point to Mr. Pina, however, and that is the exception he took to Joe LaPlante's characterization of Cape Verdeans as "Portuguese black islanders." Although this term does reflect an erroneous generalization held by some misinformed individuals, it should have been excluded.

I personally want to praise The Standard-Times staff members who put together "A Nossa Vida," and I thank them for including the important contributions of the Cape Verdean community.

source:http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/10-06/10-14-06/01opinion.htm

Thank you for the informative post on a worthy, yet controversial topic. No, Cape Verdeans should not be portrayed as Portuguese because they are not Portuguese.

Being colonized by a country does not make one's culture and ethnicity a subculture of the colonial oppressor's culture. For The Standard Times and others to repeat and spread such historical myth only perpetuates the worst type of rewriting historical fact under the guise of teaching that occurs in this country.

A poster named Ricky says Cape Verdeans are black. Well that's just as false as saying they are Portuguese. Sure, as another poster said there are natives of Cape Verde who are citizens of Portugal, France, the USA. How one chooses to identify their ethnicity should be their choice, not some label assigned by society.

By the same token, we all (especilly our young) need to learn about our true ethnic heritage and history so when we do choose how to identify ourselves we make such choices based on factual information as opposed to someone else's agenda or propaganda.

There's an interesting film on the Cape Verdean identity issue called 'Some Kind of Funny Puerto Rican?' that you can learn about by visiting web site - spiamedia.com.

cape-verdeans are a people who have portuguese origins. The study from soutcoast is accurate, as they specify that at the time when the cv arrived in the usa, they were portuguese citizens.

Cape-verdeans are portuguese because they have portuguese origins

St_antao, I would bet dollars to donuts that you've heard the following at least one thousand times from the mouths of tugas - "portugues preto nunca vi". Now, if Cape Verdeans were indeed portuguese, as you'd like us to believe, how then do you explain this cliche epithet that Cape Verdeans are told on a regular basis by portuguese people in portugal?

by the way, for those of you who don't understand what the phrase "portugues preto nunca vi" means, it translates more or less like "I've never seen a nigger portuguese". That's what white portuguese people in portugal commonly say to Cape Verdeans who claim to be portuguese.

unfortunatly for the portuguese they cannot do without us, we will be everywhere claiming our origins...They shouldn't have made kids abroad, all this is their fault, we are just telling the truth.

salah,

your point of view is risible. two blacks can have a white kid?...it is completly stupid. I know for sure that two mixed race people, whatever their skin color can have a mixed-race kid which has a pink skin as pink as regular whites. But two blacks can't have a white kid if they don't carry the genetic material of whites.

Then coming back to cv, it has been made studies on the matrilineal genetic of cv population, it has been found that 90% of the matrilineal genetic background of cv is west-african. In the other side, a result against all the propagandas spread by people like you, it has been found that the patrilineal genetic background is at 75% portuguese (caucassians+jews) and less than 25% west-african. This shows that the numbers of whites and of slaves in cv are completly fallacious and were just the basis of a propaganda to convince cv that they were not mixed-race.

Believe me, Salah, all your lies, and all the lies of your allies will fall into the ground one after one in the future years as more and more cv can find their true history and background.

PS: yes, like the cv, portuguese have black african origins because there was 10% of slaves in portugal in the 1500-1600, nevertheless this is not enough to claim that portuguese are black or african

By the way it is a big difference in being African and saying one is black all African people are not black or dark skin,we have many light skin Africans. Much of it has to do with environment,food etc. Take a class in genectics.

salah,

you sound quite condescendant, I didn't learn yesterday that 10% of the portuguese population in 1600 was african slaves, nor did I learn yesterday that 30% of the portuguese population in 1450 was jewish.

Concerning genetics, I did genetics at school and alleles, phenotype, genotypes concepts are well knon by me. I even think that you are doing bla-bla trying to impressed the cv who don't know about it. The males who genited cape-verdeans are at 75% portuguese and only 25% west-african.

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Again, north-africans are a different race to sub-saharan africans. It is two separated civilisations. You are misinformating the readers when you try to make the amalgame between north-africa and sub-saharian africa, you are lying and doing propaganda.

History tells us that we are Cape Verdean, a people that belongs to the African Nation of Cabo Verde. So, besides all the other evidence of our Africanity, because Cape Verde is located in Africa, we are Africans by default. But, if some people think that their light skin color make them European, let them believe so, since that seems to make them feel better about themselves. But in my department, I'm Cape Verdean, and consequently by default a proud African.

cv2k, you are not born in capeverde? I think, because you would know that it is not a light skin than makes a cv feel close to whites but he will if he has a nose and hairs which are similar to the south-europeans. The portuguese racial-rules impose as the major criteria for whiteness the "good hairs". In the portuguese racial rules, good hairs meant to have the hairs similar to the portuguese/europeans.

Concerning your argument for africa, let me remind you that madeira and canary are located in africa too, and therefore are two african peoples. Africa is diverse and has two main civilisations in its soil. 1 the arabo-berber in the north-africa part of the white race, and 2. the negro african civilisation in the sub-saharian africa (which has a lot of diversity inside).

If I was psychologist, I would be intrigued by your statement "...light skin color make them European, let them believe so, since that seems to make them feel better about themselves."
Do you think that those who compare themselves to europeans try to feel better. Then, Why do you think that someone who compares himself to a european would feel better? if you can answer this, it will change your life.